Pagans, Atheists, & Cults; Please Read (6 views) Subscribe   
  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/7/2001 11:30 am  
To:  ALL   (1 of 50)  
 
  26.1  
 
Witches, Pagans, Atheists, and Cultists including Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses please read.
You are Welcome!

As Jesus loves you and gave His life for you that you may live, we Christians also do Love you and we pray that you may come to personally know the love of the true and living God. The God who is the creator of the universe and the creator of all life in the universe.

We would also like to point out that the true and living God is a Holy God. Since God is a Holy God, it has long been known throughout all the ages that it Is Not Possible to see God and to live.

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in the newness of life.
Romans 6:3,4

To see and to encounter the Glory of the true and living God is to die, to die to self and to die to this world, and to live in the glory of the Resurrection of Jesus.

We as Christians have a Living relationship with the True and Glorious God, because we have acknowledged and confessed that we are a sinful people, and we have acknowledged and confessed that God loves us and that He physically died for us so that we can live a New life in a loving relationship with God.

Mankind in our present sinful condition is physically separated from God. This has led many people to error and to stray into the worship of false gods of which Satan is a false god. Please know that Jesus is the ruler of all domains and that at the name of Jesus All spirits, and powers are subject to Jesus. 

And this [that spirits & demons are subject to Jesus] was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus [a city of witchcraft]; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified. And many that believed came, and confessed, and showed their deeds. Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver. So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.
Acts 19:17-20

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord (Jesus) shall be saved. 
Acts 2:21

This is our hope and our prayer for you, that you will call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.






David A. Brown
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  From:  BURRTON   5/17/2001 2:38 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (2 of 50)  
 
  26.2 in reply to 26.1  
 
There you go, as usual you just start quoting 
scriptures. No personal observations, no thinking for yourself. 
Jesus this,,, Jesus that. Evolution has been proven, exsistance of 
primative life in space has also proven. 
Slowly but surely, science is blowing holes in your Bible. 
Give up, you are making an imbicile of yourself. 
Tired superstitions and unfounded faith in "something" 
has blinded you to reality. It took two thousand years, but 
Christianity has been proven to be what it is, an attempt 
to brainwash the weak-minded. You created "your" God, "you" 
can pray to it. I am not returning, so please don't respond with some 
patronising, sweet attempt to "save" me or some other scheme 
commonly used by Christians to give their own egos a boost. 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/18/2001 8:21 am  
To:  BURRTON   (3 of 50)  
 
  26.3 in reply to 26.2  
 
It seems like you do not want to return and dont want replies because you know that your vague statements will not stand up to any type of Scrutiny. 
Life is very Complex. We as people are very Complex  physical, spiritual, and emotional/soulish people. Only the Christian Bible/God Answers the questions of Life and Existence. 

To deny the Bible is to deny truth. Obviously you are not interested in Truth. 





David A. Brown
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/19/2001 11:04 am  
To:  ALL   (4 of 50)  
 
  26.4 in reply to 26.1  
 
In an earlier post I mentioned that Many nonbelievers have attempted to poke holes in Christianity Only to become Christians themselves. 
Lee Strobal, is one such person. Lee was a devout Atheist for many years. Lee studied the writings of most of the worlds religions, and could easily debunk all of them, Except for the True religion of Christianity. After studying the Christian Bible Lee became a Christian. 

Lee has written two books regarding his findings as an Atheist and his Conversion to Jesus as Lord & Savior. 

The Books are The Case for Christ and The Case for Faith 
Available or ordered at any bookstore or Christian bookstore 
Also available through Amazon.com 
Or at a discount price by calling 1-800-527-9600 





David A. Brown
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/19/2001 11:16 am  
To:  ALL   (5 of 50)  
 
  26.5 in reply to 26.4  
 

**This post is a reply to this same Topic that I posted on another forum. I was unable to get an e-mail to this person for their permission to use it on my forum. I deciede that it is such a good post to use it w/o having obtained their permission. The person still retains all authory over their post and I will respond to any desires that they make known to me. David.** 
I wrote this as a letter or a post on a forum to someone else, but since 
there are so many people deceived by that wicca nonsense, I decided to 
post it here too. Who knows, maybe someone will be saved from the hell 
that demon posing as a goddess is going to lead him or her into. The blank 
was the name of the person to whom I was writing. If you are someone who 
is caught up in the wicca lie, fill in the blank with your own name. 

The sinner is described in Romans 1: 

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the 
godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their 
wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because 
God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world 
God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been 
clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are 
without excuse. 

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave 
thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts 
were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 
and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like 
mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 

Here you are _________. You are under the wrath of God. You have no excuse 
for not knowing the One True God. 

But you choose to reject the truth for the worship of a stinking demon you 
call a goddess. What a wicked filthy thing to do!! Because of that God has 
pronounced a judgment on you. You are given over to the control of that 
demon you worship and it will stay that way until you repent of this great 
wickedness. This is not just a difference of opinion. 

You have chosen to deny Jesus Christ who made you and whom you owe every 
breath and choose to worship a devil. Jesus holds your breath in his hand. 
He allows you to live. He feeds you. And you repay Him by dancing in 
circles and doing wicked things in the name of that demon you call a 
goddess. You, _______, are who that scripture is talking about. You, 
__________ and every other person in that wicca nonsense, are the ones 
whose thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened and 
who although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the 
glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and 
birds and animals and reptiles. The very fact that you and your wicca 
friends are committing this great and hideous sin every day is a JUDGEMENT 
OF GOD AGAINST YOU! 

I have shown you more real love by telling you this than all of those 
wicca people put together. Listen to me, you are going to admit that JESUS 
is the only one true God and that you have sinned against him by 
worshiping this devil. The only question is when. I am not the only person 
who has told you this. Repent of you sin and give up that unholy devil you 
worship. 

You are going to stand before Jesus Christ after you die. You will give an 
account for every thought word or deed you have ever committed. You will 
give an account for every single person who has ever witnessed to you. You 
will give an account for worshiping this demon you call a goddess and that 
stinking demon will not be there to defend you. 

The good news is that Jesus Christ is still in the business of casting 
out devils, cleansing hearts, and setting people free from sin and its 
consequences. Which is why I pray for the people who write about cutting 
themselves, worshiping the wicca devil, and other sins. Jesus said He came 
to save sinners. But they have to repent and come to Him. No one has 
committed such a bad sin that they can't come to Jesus for forgiveness and 
cleansing. How do people come to Jesus today? Start by praying and telling 
Him that you are sorry for your sins and ask Him to help you and forgive 
you. 





David A. Brown
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  From:  Irish_Jade    5/27/2001 1:53 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (6 of 50)  
 
  26.6 in reply to 26.5  
 
*is proudly Wiccan and laughing uproarously at this misdirected attempt at conversion*
Ooh, this is a GOOD one. Congrats, you just made the Top Ten Horrible Conversion Attempts list.

But you choose to reject the truth for the worship of a stinking demon you call a goddess.

HAHAHAHA ! This is a first. I've never heard anyone put down their OWN religion while putting down another. Did you need help for that, or did it come naturally ?

You, _______, are who that scripture is talking about.

REALLY ?! I got my name in the Bible ? Whoo-hoo !!!

*a laughingly amused*

~ IJ 







"The written word is all that stands between memory and oblivion. Without books as our anchors, we are cast adrift, neither teaching nor learning. They are windows on the past, mirrors on the present, and prisms reflecting all possible futures. Books are lighthouses erected in the dark sea of time."

-- Jeffery Robbins
'A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time'

Hostess of :
Canadian Pagans | DreamCrafters

You may find me at :
Teen-Witch | The House of ImnnmI
 
  
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  From:  Star Storm (siskama)    5/30/2001 9:58 am  
To:  Irish_Jade    (7 of 50)  
 
  26.7 in reply to 26.6  
 
Hi Jade....You are very welcome to come over to Seekers....we are some of us Christain/Witches and WE KNOW we dont even believe in the Satan that the Judeo-Christians thought up.....THERE IS NO SATAN...If you do wrong its cause YOU DID WRONG!!!! Plain and simple....Peace to thee Jade....Medicine Song



For Spell Crafting,Incense Powders, Flying Ointment,Power and Attraction Oils, Body Nourishment,Salves and various other Herbal Products, please go to Medicine Song's Majikal Moon at address below...Thank you ! Medicine Song's Majikal Moon
VERY SENSUAL SCENTED MASSAGE and BODY OILS and Crystal Point Wands etc....

Seekers of Olde Knowledge
TO DIE FOR PERFUMES & HOME SCENTS, for Body & Soul,Please visit: THE ROWAN'S PLACE 

COMMON SCENTS !


 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/30/2001 11:06 am  
To:  Star Storm (siskama)    (8 of 50)  
 
  26.8 in reply to 26.7  
 
The hallmark of Satanism-Witchcraft is subtlety. It is not just the obvious satanic event that is dangerous it is the subtle act.
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yeah, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 

You-your group, might deny that Satan exists in the world. You also might not believe that Jesus is God. This just reveals that you have neglected reality.






David A. Brown
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  From:  Irish_Jade    5/31/2001 12:44 pm  
To:  Star Storm (siskama)    (9 of 50)  
 
  26.9 in reply to 26.7  
 
Anerchiadau atat, Dear Medicine Song,
I agree with what you said :

If you do wrong its cause YOU DID WRONG!!!

Because I also agree with the following quote :


The belief in a supernatural
source of evil is not necessary, men alone are
quite capable of every wickedness.
--Joseph Conrad
Thanx for the understanding that is so welcome after such an intolerant attitude here. I'll visit the forum you mentioned ASAP.



Mo sheacht mbeannacht ort,
~ IJ
 


"The written word is all that stands between memory and oblivion. Without books as our anchors, we are cast adrift, neither teaching nor learning. They are windows on the past, mirrors on the present, and prisms reflecting all possible futures. Books are lighthouses erected in the dark sea of time."
-- Jeffery Robbins
'A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time'

Hostess of :
Canadian Pagans | DreamCrafters
You may find me at :
Teen-Witch | The House of ImnnmI 
 
  
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  From:  Star Storm (siskama)    5/31/2001 12:58 pm  
To:  Irish_Jade    (10 of 50)  
 
  26.10 in reply to 26.9  
 
Kewel Deal!!! Will look forward to meeting ya and so will everyone there!!!! xoxo MS


For Spell Crafting,Incense Powders, Flying Ointment,Power and Attraction Oils, Body Nourishment,Salves and various other Herbal Products, please go to Medicine Song's Majikal Moon at address below...Thank you ! Medicine Song's Majikal Moon
VERY SENSUAL SCENTED MASSAGE and BODY OILS and Crystal Point Wands etc....
Seekers of Olde Knowledge
TO DIE FOR PERFUMES & HOME SCENTS, for Body & Soul,Please visit: THE ROWAN'S PLACE 

COMMON SCENTS !


  
 
  
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  From:  Rowan (POTIONS)    6/1/2001 7:02 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (11 of 50)  
 
  26.11 in reply to 26.8  
 
I would love to listen to YOUR views without the quotes. You MUST have some opinions, thoughts, ideas? Why do you think / believe as you do? 
I am truly interested as it might shed some light on why we still have all these religeous problems in the world. I really need to understand what benefit comes from villifying a segment of society? Why does no one listen and learn from the history we have created? Must there always be genocide, race wars, religeous conflicts, etc.? 

Your greatest teacher said judge not lest ye be judged and yet MOST who claims to follow his path, do not follow this teaching. 

It sometimes makes me very sad to be part of the HUMAN race.


Contemplate the little things in life and then enjoy them all!..... Rowan





Many thanks to Valcali at Creative Signatures, who took my dream and made it real! 


Creative Signatures


For wonderful herbal products, please go to:


Medicine Song's Moon Lair

For you perfume or aroma items, please visit me at:


Common Scents Perfumes

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/2/2001 8:01 am  
To:  Rowan (POTIONS)    (12 of 50)  
 
  26.12 in reply to 26.11  
 
I think the existence of Sin makes everyone sad. 
God created the world and us without sin. Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the tree of the Knowledge of good and evil. 

Today we are eating fruit from the same tree as we experience both good and evil. 

The Bible very clearly explains mankinds predicament of sin and death. 

To look at people and see sin is very despairing but to Look to God/Jesus our Savior from Sin and Death is the comfort that only a Christian knows. 

There cannot be peace in the world as long as there is Sin. Jesus died on the cross to kill sin. Jesus is the Prince of Peace Isaiah 9:6. The world will Never know peace until it accepts Jesus. 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/2/2001 8:11 am  
To:  Rowan (POTIONS)    (13 of 50)  
 
  26.13 in reply to 26.11  
 
Let me explain the death of Jesus a little more.
Death is the end of Sin! People will continue to sin as long as they are physically alive!

Three days After Jesus died He then Resurrected back to Life in a new Spiritual Body. The new Spiritual Kingdom of Jesus is the sinless Kingdom of God. You cannot see the Kingdom of God unless you become Spiritually Born Again.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My Kingdom is not of this world: if My Kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my Kingdom not from here.






David A. Brown
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  From:  BURRTON   6/4/2001 1:34 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (14 of 50)  
 
  26.14 in reply to 26.13  
 
And that's the tool the church uses to ensure it's 
exsistance. If the threat of sin had'nt been "invented" 
the church would have no ammunition to continue it's 
tradition of extorting money from the insecure masses. 
It sounds harsh but, David, it's the truth. 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/4/2001 5:29 pm  
To:  BURRTON   (15 of 50)  
 
  26.15 in reply to 26.14  
 
No the truth is SIN does exist in the world. 
Have you ever watched the news, or is your head burried in the sand. 
The Church dosn't have to scare anyone. 

There will always be people who choose to honor and worship Jesus. 





David A. Brown
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  From:  BURRTON   6/4/2001 11:29 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (16 of 50)  
 
  26.16 in reply to 26.15  
 
I, myself have honored Jesus. 
I have not and will not worship him, however. 
I never met the man. 
You have every right to worship if you please. 
You sound very grounded and I envy your contentment. 
Nice chatting with you, so long. 
  
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  From:  LADYRAVEN7   6/8/2001 2:12 pm  
To:  BURRTON unread  (17 of 50)  
 
  26.17 in reply to 26.16  
 
Burton, my hats off to you. I like the way in which you put things, and I wish I had your gift. 
Blessed Be, 

~Raven




Seekers of Olde Knowledge
Hostess
 
  
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  From:  M_DAuvergne   6/10/2001 5:38 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (18 of 50)  
 
  26.18 in reply to 26.1  
 
You know, I'm usually all for tolerance and everything, but this is plain rediculous. First of all, you call the Mormons, RLDS, and Jehovas Witnessess "Cults" where, thechnically, the Church is a cult itself....also, the mere notion that you believe that your Belief is True is the most arrogant things I have ever seen in my entire life. Also, how do you know Jesus loves ME? I love me, my parents love me, my freinds (well, a few of them) love me...but I've never seen, nor do I think you have seen, Jesus coming down from the heavens screaming in firey holiness "BOY DO I LOVE THAT GUY CORONUS!! HE IS NIFTY!!!" For all I know, and for all you know, Jesus doesn't exist. Also, by the pure notion of faith, people have come up with UNDENIABLE proof of God. Such as, the cloak in Guadelupe, and miraculous "acts of god" have shown up throughout the ages. Here goes a sample conversation: 
GOD: "Faith is required for me to exist, for proof belies faith." 
MAN: "Ah...but here's undeniable proof that you exist, so by your own definition of faith, you don't." 
GOD: "Oh...oops..." 

And thus god disapears in a proof of logic. 

Also, I am not any of the religions that you have posted in your message. I look to myself for strength, not to an external source. Plus, if there is a god, why would god choose humans? Does he exist in time? Do we? I don't know. I don't claim to know. 

Of course, this doesn't mean that YOU DO, nor does any other being on this planet. 
Another thing, is god subject to nature? If not, why not? Shouldn't he/she/whatever be balenced like everything else? Hmm? 

Sorry, I just saw too many illogical fallicies in your work of seeming fiction. Plus, Mormons and Witnesses beleive in Christ as well, and are just as illogical.

"Christian Nation, make us allright, put us through the filter, and make us pure and white!" 

"Lets imitate reality...Insanity!! Lets strive from mediocrity....Insanity!! Lets make believe we're all the same...now thats for me!" 

These must be values you share. Undoubtedly. 
Here's mine: "HEY! I am like this. You are like that. Cool." 

~Coronus D'Auvergne
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/10/2001 6:11 pm  
To:  M_DAuvergne   (19 of 50)  
 
  26.19 in reply to 26.18  
 
Put on your Logic Hat and try this:
2 Timothy 2:12 It is a faithful saying: for if we be dead with Him, we shall also live with Him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him: if we deny Him He will deny us: If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful: He cannot deny Himself.

Have you discovered yet that God's ways are not man's ways!






David A. Brown
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   From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/10/2001 8:58 pm  
To:  M_DAuvergne   (20 of 50)  
 
  26.20 in reply to 26.18  
 
Okay, the Babel Fish does not exist as of yet. 
  
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From:  nypples (isobugsmum)   6/11/2001 12:36 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (21 of 50)  
 
  26.21 in reply to 26.12  
 
Didn't God build in the mechanism for sin in the first place though? Otherwise, Adam and Eve just wouldn't have had a clue, would they. Unless something went wrong in the manufacturing process? One of my favourite conundrums. If God created the potential for sin in a being capable of being induced to act on it just on the basis of a wily serpent, then isn't he, in a very direct way, responsible for the creation of sin? 
If free will is essential to a whole and integrated love of God, then isn't God dependent on the existence of sin to provide a counterpoint to the Real Thang? 

Also - if we are built in the image of God, and we were built by our nature with the capacity to engage in a sin, a sinful nature being after all something which we cannot escape, then doesn't God have the capacity to sin also? 

I am a vicar's wife, btw, so I'm not taking the micturated effluvia. 

pax 

Jane


Love, friendship, advice and community....click on heartstrings and join Australia's biggest women's internet community.
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/12/2001 1:40 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (22 of 50)  
 
  26.22 in reply to 26.19  
 
*Smiles demonically* 
Greetings everyone. I think its about time that a Left-Hand path, Chaos magic Occultist/physics major jump into this conversation... And since I seem to be the only one here, I guess that means I'm automatically elected. 

God's ways are Man's ways. Ever stop to compare stories in the Bible to the mythology of cultures which came before the Jews? You'll soon notice that ALL of the stories in the Bible are rehashed versions of previously thought up mombo-jumbo from other cultures of the same geographic region. For example, the name and idea for the Christian "Satan" comes from a Quaballistic/PreJewish demon named "Shitan" who was the demon of fire. In other words, Satan is a concept stolen from the Jews and turned by Christians to fill in the rather substantial hole left in many areas of the Bible. 

Don't get it? Thought you wouldn't. More explination is needed. I guess I'm going to have to give you a history lesson... 

Lets jump in our wayback machine and go back in time to the Childean Empire. Its a PROVEN scientific fact that Zoroasterism (sp?) was the first monotheistic religion and the one which Judaism, Islam and Christianity all came from. Before Zoaster came around and messed things up for everyone, all "Gods" and "Demons" in the fertile crecent region had both light and dark aspects of their personalities. Zoraster thought that he WAS God and, thus, the proverbal snowball began to roll down hill. Islam and Judaism both came shortly after, evolving from the old ways with, now, only one God... But what about the Christians? 

Once upon a time there was a REALLY big, REALLY powerful nation called the Roman Empire. They ruled most of the known world with an iron fist. The people, natually wanting out from under the Roman thumb, would try to rebel with little luck due to the overwhelming power of their oppressor's army. The Jews used to take the brunt of most of the Roman abuse because of their close geographical proximity, strict moral code and the fact that, at that time, the Jews controlled most of the trade routes from the Middle East into Europe. Then, supposidly, this guy named Jesus comes along, educating the people and opposing Roman rule. He was also historically known to associate himself with the Zelots (a militant Jewish faction opposed to Rome). 

So the poor schmuck is killed and Joseph of Aramethia, friend of both Jesus and Poncious Pilot, pays off Piolt to have Jesus's corpse removed from the Garden for a proper burial (since he was a Rabbi). There are historical Roman records accounting this. Unfortunately, you don't hear about them until you're usually a college grad specializing in Antique Peroid history. 

However, despite Jesus, the Jews were still under Roman rule. The Romans in collaboration with tradiorous Jews about 400 years later, started to write accounts of his life, borrowing off of other Jewish lore, in an attempt to silence and control the Jewish population in the Middle East. This is why the oldest copy of any book in the Bible is only a mere 400 years after Christ. In other words, none of them are first hand accounts. Both the Gnostic Texts and the Dead Sea Scrolls are older by 250 years, but they just say that Jesus was more of a "Jewish President" rather than a savior. This is why 85% of the Dead Sea Scrolls won't be released by the Isralie government. They're afraid of breaking the hearts of religious Biblethumpers everywhere. 

Christianity, in other words, is more or less a fabricated religion with the sole intent of gaining power over people. This is why, in 700 AD, the Church of Rome had a formal gathering to decide which parts of the Bible should be omitted, what should be added and which should be kept. The Bible we have today is nothing more than cut and paste nonsense from the same jokers who thought that dragons were real, all of humanity came from two people and the world was flat. 

These old world views, however, have already been proven wrong with common sense. Then again, Christianity is the reason there were the Dark Ages, now isn't it? 

Try to learn a thing or two about where your religion comes from. I'm only 20 and have read things that you have to specially request from the Smithsonian since a bound copies doesn't exist (although a lot of them can be found on the net now). You've only read the Bible and maybe a few other related texts. YOU HAVE TO DIG FOR THE GOOD STUFF, MAN! Try reading something that was written by someone who didn't believe the universe revolved around the Earth. Some modern, historical views of the rise of Eastern religion are good for this, explaining what daily life was like for Jesus back in the day, etc. Go ahead and try it. It will either strengthen your belief or possibly change your views. 

Shoot anything you want at me. I'm open as always to debate. 

(By the way, sorry if this sounds a little condesending. I often do when I don't intend to.) 

-The Mad Dr. Shock 
"W.W.K.D.- What would Kali do?" 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 6/12/01 5:58:21 AM ET by DR_SHOCK 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/12/2001 10:04 am  
To:  Dr_Shock   (23 of 50)  
 
  26.23 in reply to 26.22  
 
You forget a major principal, that is the Bible {Old/New Testament} is mostly Prophecy of future events. Because the Bible is written with more knowledge than Humans possess about coming future events the Bible is not written by people but by God. You left that fact out in your dissertation. 
For an Example: Please see the Post "A walk with Jesus 2,000 years ago"




David A. Brown
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/12/2001 2:59 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (24 of 50)  
 
  26.24 in reply to 26.23  
 
If the Bible was written by either God or Jesus, then why are all known ancient manuscripts written in either Latin or Hebrew when Jesus knew only Aerameic? Other than that, there has never been any evidence that God himself writing the Bible but rather that the Bible was inspired by God. Not unlike how a modern poet who is inspired by the forest or sky. The forest and sky don't write the poetry themselves, but rather present the poet with the emotional backing he needs to create his work.


-The Mad Dr. Shock 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/12/2001 3:20 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (25 of 50)  
 
  26.25 in reply to 26.24  
 
The Old Testament was First written in Hebrew. 
The New Testament was First written in Greek. 
Jesus as God knows everything. You presume that He spoke Aramaic. The sign over the head of Jesus on the Cross was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, the Languages of the day. 

When God Spoke to the Apostle Paul He spoke in Hebrew. When the Apostle Paul was granted a request to speak to a gathered crowd in Jerusalem Paul spoke in Hebrew. 





David A. Brown
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/12/2001 3:41 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (26 of 50)  
 
  26.26 in reply to 26.25  
 
Very true, but back when Jesus was nailed on the cross ancient Hebrew differed greatly from the "modern" Hebrew which many books of the Bible were written in. Old Hebrew is, technically, Aeramic and wasn't called Hebrew until after the Roman occupancy. 
As for the new testimant, it was written in "new" Greek as opposed to ancient Greek. A change which was also only made after the Roman influence. 

Back in the day, no one really studied the evolutionary path of languages so, to them, ancient Hebrew was still Hebrew although it really wasn't.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/12/2001 3:58 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (27 of 50)  
 
  26.27 in reply to 26.26  
 
Genesis 14:13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew;
The Jews have been called Hebrews since Abraham. Why wouldnt their Language be called Hebrew?






David A. Brown
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/12/2001 5:04 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (28 of 50)  
 
  26.28 in reply to 26.27  
 
Its called language evolution. Its the same reason old English is nothing like the English anyone speaks today. Not to mention, in that Bible quote you mentioned, it wasn't speaking of usage of the Hebrew language but rather Hebrew concepts and ideals. Remember, Jesus was a Rabbi.


-The Mad Dr. Shock 
  
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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/12/2001 5:23 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (29 of 50)  
 
  26.29 in reply to 26.25  
 
God did not speak to the Apostle Paul.

W.W.I.D 
What would I do?
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/12/2001 7:20 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (30 of 50)  
 
  26.30 in reply to 26.28  
 
Yes languages do change, But a sheep is still a sheep and a goat is still a goat. The Bible teaches in Illustrations just for that reason. 
Farmers, fisherman, potters, are all illustrations of How God is interacting with people. 

Language even with the Changes is not a mystery. All of the Worlds languages communicate with Nouns, Adjectives, Verbs, Pronouns etc. The sentence and structure remain. What has changed is spelling and pronunciation. 





David A. Brown
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/13/2001 4:29 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (31 of 50)  
 
  26.31 in reply to 26.30  
 
You can't speak or read old English when only knowing English. Even then, there are ancient languages with no pronouns or adjectives. Even in modern language, not all languages contain the most important verb known which is the verb "to be" ("sein" in German). Russian has no such verb. In Russian you can't just say "I'm tired". You have to do it in a completely different way than in any other language. 
And don't forget the modern languages which, although older than most other languages on the planet, are still based in vaguery. Japanese is a good example. 

Maybe you should rethink your argument.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/13/2001 4:56 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (32 of 50)  
 
  26.32 in reply to 26.31  
 
Hebrew and Greek both have the I am verb, it is the way God refers to Himself. 
Hebrew and Greek have even stricter verb noun classes than English. English is a very sloppy ambiguous language compared to the Hebrew and the Greek that the Bible was written in. 






David A. Brown
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/13/2001 5:10 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (33 of 50)  
 
  26.33 in reply to 26.32  
 
I only used the "I am" verb as an example. Thankyou for reminding me how sloppy a language English is. That only proves that any English translation would be a false account, since most world connotation is also dependant on adverbes, etc, as in Hebrew and Greek. Even then, the Greek and Hebrew texts are written in the newer forms of both languages and not the old forms which would then be first hand accounts. Even if they were copied from older texts, the versions we have today would be false. 
A good example of this is how older Hebrew/Aeramic texts refer to God with a very special word, which, when roughly translated into English, means "The One". Its also clear that word for "The One" is placed above the word for "God". In the "newer" ancient texts, they actually use the word for God (not the correct word). Remember, the Jews believed that all of creation could be undone if you said "The One's" true name. It was also considered vulgar to call "The One" just "God".


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/13/2001 5:19 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (34 of 50)  
 
  26.34 in reply to 26.33  
 
No it doesnt make it a False account, but it does make it a sloppy account.The English Bible is still a viable Bible. 
Reading the English Bible is about like watching black and white video of Hawaii, where reading the Hebrew or the Greek are like watching the color video of Hawaii. 

Same information one is just more brightly presented. 

I prefer to refer to the Original Languages of Hebrew and Greek when Studying the Bible vs. Devotions. 

I think the Church would be alot better off if it had a better understanding of the Original languages. 

If people think the English version of the Bible is Fire and Brimstone then the Original Languages are really a wake up Because the Original Languages Leave No Doubt Worship God as God to the Fullest or be condemned forever. 





David A. Brown
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/13/2001 7:02 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (35 of 50)  
 
  26.35 in reply to 26.34  
 
The fact still remains that there is no first hand account of any of the events of the Bible. They're all way too young to even be second or third hand accounts. Have you ever played "telephone". The truth is often warped after only the 3rd person has gotten the message. 
And why should I worship a God who would like to see me dead? The Christian God often acts like a whiney 3 year old. Better to live on my feet than die on my knees.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  M_DAuvergne   6/15/2001 3:13 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (36 of 50)  
 
  26.36 in reply to 26.19  
 
You look at it backwards. 
Your god is a product of man. You have no proof otherwise. 
"2 Timothy 2:12 It is a faithful saying: for if we be dead with Him, we shall also live with Him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him: if we deny Him He will deny us: If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful: He cannot deny Himself." 

This is an interesting quote...so basically it says that only god can say that god doesn't exist? 

Remember, the universe only exists when you look upon it, you see, there is this thing called relativity that states that everything, especially time, is how you perceive it. So why can't god be the same way? I perceive god as myself and all other people. We are all gods, and masters of our own universe, because your whole everything converges on one spot: your mind. Not only yours; indeed there are a great many perceptions of this messy ether that surrounds us. 

So if I deny him, he denies me? So what? What does that have any bearing on ANYTHING? Tell me, who is this god that you only know of in ancient parchment and outdated ideas? It makes no sense. 

Come on. Stop flinging the bible at me and tell me what YOU think. You, a unique individual in this sad, sad world. Please, the bible teaches faith, which is absolutely without faith. We need evidence. Also, while you are at it, could you tell my WHY on EARTH would you attack the Mormons? There are two groups, BTW, the SLC Mormons and the RLDS, who hate each other...you didn't mention them. Give me cold hard evidence.

Je te remercie! 

~M. D'Auvergne
 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/15/2001 6:27 pm  
To:  M_DAuvergne   (37 of 50)  
 
  26.37 in reply to 26.36  
 
Coronus D'Auvergne (M_DAUVERGNE) wrote:
Also, while you are at it, could you tell my WHY on EARTH would you attack the Mormons? There are two groups, BTW, the SLC Mormons and the RLDS, who hate each other...
  I'm not aware of anything that can fairly be called hatred between the two factions.  After the murder of Joseph Smith, the church he had founded divided in two.  One group believed that Joseph Smith's son, who was about three years old at the time, ought to succeed his father as leader of the church.  This group basically remained dormant until they thought taht Joseph Smith III was old enough to lead them, then organized themselves under the name The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  The other group, of course, led by Brigham Young, was the group that was driven out of what, at the time, constituted the United States of America, and eventually settled in the Salt Lake Valley; this group retained the original name, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as well as the common nickname Mormon.

  It's my understanding that the RLDS have pretty much abandoned most of what distinguished them and us from the regular Protestant sects, have replaced LDS doctrines with mainstream Protestant teachings, and generally become nothing more than a generic Protestant sect with unusual historical roots.  They've even abandoned their original name, now calling themselves The Community of Christ.



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  From:  M_DAuvergne   6/15/2001 7:11 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (38 of 50)  
 
  26.38 in reply to 26.37  
 
Yeah, I noticed the "Community of Christ" thing, I live in Independance, MO, which is like the COC capital, right? Sorry about the innacuracy, really... 
Although I personally do not agree with the Mormons, I beleive that since they worship the christian god, christ, and the holy spirit (will of god, the Way, the Path, whatever you choose) then they are christians. Since they worship differently (which everyone does anyways, natrually) then they are branded as heretics. So they think differently. They worship the same god, and the same christ, because there is only one, right? It's not like Christs are a dime a dozen. 

Actually, there are millions of christs, because everyone has a different view of christ and his teachings. 

I mean, this David guy sends this out in the open, which only encourages venom and negativity. Also, he is being irrational and not really following the wise man christ's example to love one another and all people, which is the most basic lesson any religion can teach you. He is behaving in hatred, which is the most mortal sin of all.Je te remercie! 

~ Coronus 



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Edited 6/15/2001 10:55:52 PM ET by M_DAUVERGNE 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/15/2001 10:03 pm  
To:  M_DAuvergne   (39 of 50)  
 
  26.39 in reply to 26.38  
 
Coronus D'Auvergne (M_DAUVERGNE) wrote:
Actually, there are millions of christs, because everyone has a different view of christ and his teachings.

I mean, this David guy sends this out in the open, which only encourages venom and negativity. Also, he is being irrational and not really following the wise man christ's example to love one another and all people, which is the most basic lesson any religion can teach you.
  Does he not remind you of the foolish protagonists in this classic folk story?  Possessing only a tiny portion of the Truth, he imagines this tiny portion to be the whole thing, and attacks those who, based on their different portions, do not agree with his interpetation of his own small piece.



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 To email me, remove the string .nospam from the email address which appears below.  DO NOT send me any form of advertising, chain letters, or other such garbage.  Spammers will be dealt with very harshly!

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   From:  Dr_Shock   6/16/2001 12:18 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (40 of 50)  
 
  26.40 in reply to 26.39  
 
Why can't we all just get along? 
(Ironically, I'm saying this and I'm a Left-Hand path Chaos practioner. I believe that everything comes from the void and returns to the void, for cryin' out loud! I'm supposed to be evil and suprimely demonic according to both pagan and Christian alike... Oh well, I guess I still have the right suprise people with the facts that I'm both a civillized human being and that I respect others as long as they aren't obnoxious... Although, I admit, I can sometimes be obnoxious. A little paradox is good for the soul, I guess.) =) 

-The Mad Dr. Shock 



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Edited 6/16/01 4:28:15 AM ET by DR_SHOCK 
  
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From:  ManafterGod   6/19/2001 2:39 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (41 of 50)  
 
  26.41 in reply to 26.5  
 
David, you have told them the truth, you have condemned their sin because they do not believe in God, you have convicted them of sin because of their belief in foreign gods. 
God will bless you and you will not stand in account for not telling them of their wickedness, because you told them the whole truth. 

I felt no judgemental spirit from you, neither did I feel any hate or anger of any sort, what I read was something that came from the mouth of God through the hands of His servant. If they won't hear, then it's their problem, stay strong in the word of God and be bless all the days of your life. 

May peace abound with you forever, and my love be your guide. 

thank you, ManafterGod'sheart...God Bless
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/19/2001 2:59 pm  
To:  ManafterGod   (42 of 50)  
 
  26.42 in reply to 26.41  
 
<<<I felt no judgemental spirit from you>>> 
Thats why David is always telling us how we're going to go to Hell? Thats not judgemental at all, now is it? He isn't God, nor is he a messenger of God. He can't even take the Bible's quotes into their correct context. 

You're probably an English major...


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  ManafterGod   6/19/2001 4:38 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (43 of 50)  
 
  26.43 in reply to 26.42  
 
I dont' know whether I should take that (English Major) as a bad thing or a good thing. HA!  
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/19/2001 5:10 pm  
To:  ManafterGod   (44 of 50)  
 
  26.44 in reply to 26.43  
 
I'm just curious. Was I close? =) 



-The Mad Dr. Shock 
  
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  From:  ManafterGod   6/19/2001 5:56 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (45 of 50)  
 
  26.45 in reply to 26.44  
 
Well, English is my favorite subject, but it's not something I want to major in, although I am looking into. 
  
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  From:  Rowan (POTIONS)    6/19/2001 9:10 pm  
To:  ManafterGod   (46 of 50)  
 
  26.46 in reply to 26.45  
 
as many posts as I have read in this and the other threads, I have but one question? 
Define GOD?


Contemplate the little things in life and then enjoy them all!..... Rowan





Many thanks to Valcali at Creative Signatures, who took my dream and made it real! 


Creative Signatures


For wonderful herbal products, please go to:


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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/19/2001 9:56 pm  
To:  ManafterGod   (47 of 50)  
 
  26.47 in reply to 26.41  
 
God bless you my brother! 
Thank you for the words of encouragement. 

I have every confidence that God will get through to these people just How much He loves them. Right now they are casting stones at Jesus and All He ever did was give them Life, But I am positive that the last chapter in the lives of these people has not yet been written and one day each one of them will find themselves Lifting up their hands and their hearts to Jesus in acknowledgment of His Love for them. 

And I do continue to Rejoice in the Many Wonderful Christian Brothers and Sisters that Bless me and this forum. 

In Gods Peace, 
David 





David A. Brown
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  From:  ManafterGod   6/20/2001 1:12 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (48 of 50)  
 
  26.48 in reply to 26.47  
 
Don't mention anything of it, I admire your love for people that you would go as far as telling them what comes ahead of them if they don't repent and get themselves in order. I think what you said was true, and I know there is someone out there reading this, or going to read this, someone with a sincere heart, someone whose looking for a way out, I know somebody is out there that God is going to send to this room and read your statement and begin thinking to themself and start turning their heart to God. 
God said If My people who are called by My name will (1st) HUMBLE themselves (2nd) Pray and Seek My Face (3rd) and Turn FROM Their WICKED Ways, then I will (1) hear from heaven and (2) forgive their sin and (3) heal their land. 

FATHER GOD, I PRAY IN THE NAME OF JESUS, THAT YOU WILL SEND THE RIGHT PERSON TO COME AND READ THIS, SEND THOSE WITH A SINCERE HEART, SOMEONE WHOSE WILLING TO HUMBLE THEMSELVES PRAY AND SEEK YOUR FACE AND TURN FROM THEIR WICKED WAYS, SO THAT YOU WILL HEAR FROM HEAVEN AND FORGIVE THEIR SIN AND HEAL WHATEVER IS HURTING THEM, I ASK YOU TO HEAL THEIR BODIES, HEAL THEIR EMOTIONS, HEAL THEIR MINDS, ONLY YOU CAN DO IT LORD. WE LOVE YOU, AND WE THANK YOU, WE PRAISE YOU, BECAUSE YOU ARE GOD AND GOD ALL BY YOURSELF. ONLY YOU CAN HEAL, ONLY YOU CAN PUT DOWN AND BRING UP. FATHER YOU ARE GOD, YOU SAID IF TWO OR THREE OF YOU ARE GATHERED TOGETHER IN MY NAME THERE I AM IN THE MIDST, I ASKED YOU TO COME IN THE MIDST, COME IN THE MIDST OF YOUR CHILDREN HEARTS, COME IN THE MIDST OF THIS FORUM AND TURN THINGS AROUND FATHER GOD. YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T COME TO CONDEMN THE WORLD, YOU COME TO SAVE THOSE WHO ARE LOST. I ASK YOU TO BRING YOUR ANOINTING DOWN ONTO DAVID AND GIVE HIM THE WORDS TO SPEAK, GIVE ME THE COURAGE TO GO OUT IN THE HEDGES, IN THE BYWAYS IN THE HIGHWAYS, GIVE HIM THE STRENGTH TO PREACH YOUR WORD, THE GOSPEL, TO EVERY LIVING CREATURE. YOU SAID LET EVERYTHING THAT HATH BREATHE PRAISE THE LORD. LET YOUR SERVANTS PRAISE YOU, OPEN UP THE MOUTHS OF YOUR SERVANTS SO THEY CAN SPEAK WHAT YOU WOULD HAVE THEM TO SPEAK. I PRAY THAT LORD JESUS, IN JESUS' NAME, AMEN. 

God Bless you David 

www.delphi.com/christiansite/start 
www.delphi.com/christiansite/messages
 
  
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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   6/21/2001 8:46 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (49 of 50)  
 
  26.49 in reply to 26.1  
 
Are you, sir, by any chance a baptist? 
Do you by any chance live by the idealism placed by the southern baptists? 

Curious. 

Al Kupone
 
  
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   From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   6/21/2001 9:06 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (50 of 50)  
 
  26.50 in reply to 26.4  
 
>In an earlier post I mentioned that Many 
>nonbelievers have attempted to poke holes 
>in Christianity Only to become Christians themselves. 
>Lee Strobal, is one such person. Lee was a devout 
>Atheist for many years. Lee studied the writings 
>of most of the worlds religions, and could easily 
>debunk all of them, Except for the True religion 
>of Christianity. After studying the Christian 
>Bible Lee became a Christian. 

To start, there are countless holes for where I can poke a hole in the Christian religion, I don't think that I can readily count the sheer number of holes... but I'll start with the biggest one. There is not a published text from the new testament that is more than 1600 years old, though I have heard arguments that there is one supposedly only 200 years after the approximate death of Jesus. Right there is becomes word of mouth. Second the bible that is around today is still based off of a translation of a translation from a very limited number of works (copies). In or around 500 AD a vast majority of the copies of the bible were burned as a pagan work, even with the assumption that some of the books survived it's still a wonder how accurate those that survived might truly be. 

This might be difficult for you to concieve, but back in the day, if there were more than 100 known copies of the bible that would have been the most published book in existance then too, books were not common and were all hand copied, thus not produced quickly, especially with how expensice paper was... show me a bible carved on stone and I'll believe once I've seen it carbon dated. 

Now... for the case of Lee Strobal, I have heard the same claim made by him that he was a pagan and turned Christian, it is hard not to in the area I live in, yet his arguments are still based upon th bible and his anti-science that he preaches with, th claim from him that sticks out most in my mind is the statement that chaos could not form the perfection and order of this universe... apparently he never looked at the nearly random way the dispursal of stars follows and apparently he has not seen that the universe still has rules that it follows as well. 

Nothing is truly idiot proof... because idiots are so ingenious... 

Al Kupone
 
  
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